What to say in a comment when listening to another artist's track?

My intention in starting this thread is to simply open an exploration of the listener comments and the kinds of things that might be said. It may be worth developing some guidelines on how and what to leave for the artist to read about your thoughts and feelings on his/her music (perhaps these exist somewhere on the site, so feel free to direct me there too if I have missed something that already exists - no sense re-inventing anything, although it may be worth re-visiting the current guidelines regardless). I think it may be especially useful for new-comers, as well as laying the groundwork for all of us who wish to help maintain MP3U as an active and supportive community of artists.

I will offer the following thoughts to start:

1. Most of us "intend" to be positive and helpful. (Sometimes we don't express ourselves with enough clarity to get that intention across, but I think we generally mean well).

2. We all struggle with listening to criticism ( a human condition, often a musician's Achilles heel), regardless of how well and precisely it may be expressed. So, it is likely best to let a comment sit for a a few days before responding. Taking a deep breath (or two or three) before we load a replying broadside is always a good strategy. If needed, take a week of deep breathing

3. Most "differences" are best expressed in Private Messages" or "e-mails," I think. A PDA - public display of aggression - does not serve any good purpose, I think. If a more public forum is needed for broader input or opinion, a thread could be started on the MP3U Forum, but I would not prefer this route myself. Privacy is preferred (dirty laundry in public sort of thing)

4. Seeking clarification and precision and sticking to observations is more productive than generalizations. For example, "the vocal in the second verse is not as clear to my ears as the first verse," rather than, "your music sucks" - these are hypothetical examples for demonstration purposes only .

5. Let reason prevail over emotion.

OK, that's all I'll say for the moment.

Please feel free to add/subtract. Community is developed by involvement

All the best,
Terry

[Pidgeman]

Hey Andy, did I ever tell you that you that you're amazing and everything you upload is the best song ever?
No?
Sorry, "you're amazing and everything you upload is the best song ever!"



















































but maybe you could up the bass a couple of db's, and add some compression to the vox, can't be sure I'm on my girlfriends set up, I'll have a proper listen when I get home

[alive]

I cant believe the immaturity displayed in this thread. Terry started off an interesting, thoughtful topic and an idiot like Pidgeman (who gives a fk what he thinks anyway) comes along and writes a load of puerile infantile crap throughout it. Oh and its not funny mate - get back to primary school. Tosser

[James Oakwood]

The olympics has finished but it appears the boxing hasn't. In the red corner is northern scum "A" and in the blue, northern scum "B".

[tbwig]

I do appreciate the value of humour, most of the time but, often, it is used to avoid coming to terms with the reality of the question being explored: what are appropriate types of comments to leave on another artist's page?

As a newbie, a year ago, I watched a back and forth, heated exchange between two artists I had come to appreciate and value, one of whom gave me permission to sing "out of tune" on a track for the summer comp

I sent PMs to both artists questioning the behaviour that caught my attention. I sent the same observation to both artists, and one (the same artist who gave me permission noted previously) was kind enough to reply and did offer some form of apology to the 3rd artist, whose song and page had become the scene of some aggressive tones and posturing between these 2 other artists (at least that is how it appeared to me and so I questioned what was happening). There can be a higher road, and it can be found before it all becomes public and awkward (for us who watch and wonder WTF is going on between these people?)

I give that historical frame of reference as the context in which the current back and forth between two artists, whose compositions I have also come to enjoy (both have been around this site considerably longer than I have), erupted. There was a surface level of civility in the language, even in the tone of the comments for the most part but as the number of exchanges grew, it seemed to indicate an escalating level of antagonism, and a definite sense of offense being taken.

My point is not to say that we should pretend there are not imperfections or ignore tracks that may have some issues worth sorting out to "improve" the result. But I wonder how these "crits" might be expressed more appropriately and in ways that communicates a sincere attempt to "help" as opposed to what may be perceived as an insincere intention to malign.

I realize that part of the problem may be that any comment that is not "flattering" or "glowing" may be construed by the receiving artist as an act of hostility. To this I observe that we cannot control the other person or how they they receive the comments we make BUT, as the writer, we can give the comments, if they are pointing out something negative, a sober second thought and ask, before we press "send," whether the comment is really going to make a difference to the artist (will he/she receive it as helpful?) or not. It may be that simple, I'm not sure.

Now, to return to the intention of the thread, James O. suggested the ability of the host artist to delete/remove comments that are not well-received. OK, that is a possible strategy. I'm not sure that this technical solution really addresses what I would like to improve, which the awareness that comments can become battles where there need be none. I think awareness and simple guidelines that are honourable and well-intentioned would be of benefit. Not that MP3U needs more rules and policies, but a set of statements/examples, brief and to the point, may be a reference guide for self-checking. If we have a set of common-values, the community benefits, I think.

Finally, the debate about one "opinion" versus another "opinion" is just that: a debate about "opinion." Individual taste and preference as to what we like to hear and perhaps even "expect" to hear from tracks is just that: it is individual and subjective (or the world according to my ears). At least that is what I tend to think. It doesn't mean I won't try something someone (er...Andy*, for example) suggests just because, "we all know that Andy*..." ...oops....At this point, I have choice to complete the sentence with what the reader may be thinking, or take it to a higher level and restate that remark as, " and we all know that Andy* is helpful" most of the time. * - see below for the asterisks

I have learned that most of us mean well, by what we try to add in a comment. I have also learned that an opinion in a comment is just an opinion. I can choose to let it go, or to get my knickers in a knot (did I get that Brit. expression correct? I always have the choice. The person reading the comment left on a track cannot control the comment, but he/she can control how it is received/perceived. The person giving the comment always has a choice as to what words he/she will leave. Choice requires thought, and thought requires time, and most of us live in a time-challenged world. That may be part of the problem. Quick comments.

Hmmm, looking back, it appears there are some rambling thoughts here. So, take it all it with a grain of salt or, as farmers here say, take it with a "cow lick" of salt The tougher the comment, the more salt is required.

All the best,
Terry

* I'm using "Andy" as an example name only, and any resemblance to James O. is purely unintentional....I love disclaimers

**Kudos to the LOC and city of London, and the UK, for hosting a fabulous Olympics and that closing show reminds me of one of the reasons I love mp3u... Brit Rock !! (not boxing

*** I just wanted a 3rd addendum to make it look more academic

[Disfunktional-DJs]

In my experience, if you give constructive feedback, Then you should be prepared to accept it too.

All this boils down to is - Someone took the high road, because they received some constructive feedback. After leaving constructive feedback themselves.

Bad Sport !


How do you like them apples

[Pidgeman]

Just to explain for those that might not have the full picture here.
Someone received a comment on a track that said that the vocals sounded thin and weak. They then basically accused the person who left that comment of tit for tat because they had left a negative comment on their page before. They reasoned that this comment couldn't possibly true because nobody else had mentioned it before. I then said that I had actually thought exactly the same thing when I had listened to the song several times a week earlier. I didn't leave a comment at the time because I know that people tend to get upset and defensive if you say anything negative about their songs but I thought that since this new member was basically being accused of lying I would defend him and point out that just because nobody else had said anything didn't mean that nobody else was thinking the same thing, and that perhaps the guy was just being honest. This took several comments back and forth to explain which may have been better done by pm. The upshot of this was that the other guy said he was no longer going to post new music on this site.
In no way was I attacking this person on their page. He is a friend of mine and we afterwards had a discussion about his reasons for this decision on Facebook. I'm not going to disclose what he said here because it was a private discussion but suffice to say it was not because of me and I completely agree with him on the points that he made about what niggles him about this site. I did however defend the site and say that despite the problems he mentioned that it was still basically a good site and many people would be sorry if he left. At the end of the day he has his reasons which are up to him and whatever decision he makes I wish him luck for the future.
Somebody else then chimed in on the page comments much the same thing that James Bell has said above. That who gives a f**k what Pidgeman thinks as he is an amateur, or in James words, a tosser. The answer, nobody cares. Apparently. My point is this. The vast majority of us here are amateurs, granted to widely varying degrees of skill. Why are we prepared to accept the opinion of an 'amateur' when they say something positive but not when the same or another 'amateur' says something negative? We are so used to getting glowing praise on this site regardless of the quality of the music that when we hear any other type of comment it sounds harsh by comparison. If you look around this site you will find a lot of really good music by a great many artists and also a lot of not so good music by a great many artists. However if you read the comments instead of listening to the music you would be lead to believe that most of it was on exactly the same level. That in a nutshell is the problem with commenting on this site and other sites of this type. We end up praising everything because we're so afraid we might offend someone or *horror of horrors* not get a return rate on our track.
Take a look at the comments that were made on the pages that was being referred to in this thread and tell me this, was anything truly offensive said about the song? Far from it. Indeed I said that the music was very good and deserved in my opinion a better vocalist to compliment it. Now the person whose page it was told me that he wasn't offended by my comments, that doesn't mean he agreed but that's the point of opinions, everybody's is different. Why do people get offended on someone else's behalf?
James, as I've said before, I may be just a tosser to you and you may think this isn't funny. What you don't realise is that you are actually an integral part of this whole problem and from where I'm sitting its absolutely f**king hilarious.
That said, you are amazing and everything you upload is the best song ever.
That goes to everybody.
Spread the love

[tbwig]

I appreciate the perspective, Pidgeman. I do not stand in judgment of anyone. Thanks for trying to provide more information for others to understand the dynamics of comments. The details of this particular situations are not as important, to me, as the process. Pidgeman, I do admire the extent of the efforts you have mentioned. That is noteworthy and represents the essence of the moral high ground, I think. Thanks for sharing that. I also respect your "defend -the- newcomers" approach, and that is the very "mentoring" I hope to see more of on this site. So, on all these scores, thank you. You are doing the stuff I hope makes this site better. Still, the reality is that an artist felt wounded enough to pack it all up and leave the site. That, to me, is worth exploring. Not that we can alter a decision. We are free to choose a path. We can still learn bt reflecting on the process, I think.

Perhaps it is time to narrow the scope of the comments in this thread and focus now on the idea of public opinions versus private opinions. I will offer this as an observer on mp3u, watching the comments flow- that it doesn't appear helpful, or feel positive, when the number of exchanges between two artists grows on the same point. It signals a stuckness. As for identifying who is stuck, and why, only the participants in the exchange can assess that, I think. What I offer is only a view from the sidelines: it didn't look, or feel, good to me (and that observation alone puts what I am saying in the same realm of being subjective. I acknowledge that as a problem inherent in this exploration).

May I reiterate the opening idea of the thread that this was an "exploration" and that I would like us all to try to steer clear of value-laden, judgemental language. Name -calling, and sarcasm, does not help either, regardless of the intention; and that intention may be good and noble too (defending another is a well-intended act, I think, but it may not be expressed in an appropriate way).

OK, to sum it up, the debate is now shifting to the point of public versus private comments. I offer this as another point in the guidelines : "Public comments (viewed by all) should be more about what you appreciated and enjoyed, and/or what you specifically heard (instruments, f/x, fades, intros/outros etc.). Points that represent possible contentious issues (more technical perhaps) could be dealt with separately in Private Messages or e-mails." I'm throwing that idea out there. It may not be worthwhile or practical, so it is just an idea.

What I am observing in this thread is that the discussion of comments is important and most artists have histories and experience on this site that may offer some valuable insights and perspectives. Sharing these ideas may help us all to make mp3u become better than it already is. I'm all for improving and learning new ideas and strategies. I'm not so fond of name-calling and sarcasm. But, and I cautiously point his out, we're all adults, right? (I was going to say, "eh?" at the end, but that is too obvious acultural stereo-type ;P

Leaving public comments is a scary thought, and intimidating for many. I like the idea that this thread is trying to help others. It is not about judging the past, or labelling "right" or "wrong", but choosing a better path in the future, if there is one to be found

All the best,
Terry

[Disfunktional-DJs]

Terry, it's the internet... if you upload music on the internet you are open to any kind of comment...Reason why we have the delete button is if you don't want negative/constructive feedback.

Having guidelines to how to comment ? really ? FFS !

You should be able to comment however you feel fit... you should deal with whatever consequences happen.

BTW that guy has left the site more times than I can care to remember...He needs to deal with it...Stop crying and leaving every time he doesn't agree with something.

if you start @ the very beginning of what happened he was the one who left negative feedback first...and didn't like it when he got some in return.

That's been a bad sport... He's been on this site long enough to know how things work...Why is he been treated any different? He left negative feedback yet no one is having a go at him for doing this.

[Pidgeman]

To quote Ricky Gervais on Twitter:
"we have the right to offend, and the right to be offended, but not the right to never be offended"
He's my guru you know

[alive]

Craig - i'm not arsed if you think i'm an integral part of the problem. I do what i do because i enjoy listening and commenting on tracks here at mp3u. I like music and find a lot to like across many of the genres but i do add constructive comments if i feel that something jars (to my ears anyway). I had no problem with your debate on Dave Meredith's page but what boiled my piss was the way you hijacked this thread with your pathetic attempts at humour. Maybe i am as immature as you for resorting to name calling but "Tosser" was the only word that sprung to mind when thinking of a word to describe you. Stick to making music mate - a comedian in the making you are not (dont think Gervais works for you as a guru )